Martin Weber says "Dale, you teach that the New Covenant does away with the Ten Commandments, including the Sabbath. But the NT teaches that what God wrote on the tables of stone in the Old Covenant is now written on our hearts. Hebrews 10:16 says: “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds.” These are not just spiritual principles (as you say), but God’s actual commandments." Read 2 Corinthians 3. I'll post it here "2You are our letter, written in our hearts, known and read by all men; 3being manifested that you are a letter of Christ, cared for by us, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts." Yes, the NT does talk about something being written on our heart, but what is it? The 10 commandments? Keep reading 2 Corinthians 3. "4Such confidence we have through Christ toward God. 5Not that we are adequate in ourselves to consider anything as coming from ourselves, but our adequacy is from God, 6who also made us adequate as servants of a new covenant, not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life." Here we find the letter of the law contrasting with the Spirit. Notice it says nothing about the spirit of the law. Keep reading and you will see it defines exactly what Spirit means. What is the law it talks about in 2 Corinthians 3? "7But if the ministry of death, in letters engraved on stones, came with glory, so that the sons of Israel could not look intently at the face of Moses because of the glory of his face, fading as it was, 8how will the ministry of the Spirit fail to be even more with glory?" What is the law that was engraved on stones? This is not just talking about part of the law, but it actually refers to the tablets of stone - the 10 commandments - the old covenant. Keep reading. "9For if the ministry of condemnation has glory, much more does the ministry of righteousness abound in glory. 10For indeed what had glory, in this case has no glory because of the glory that surpasses it. 11For if that which fades away was with glory, much more that which remains is in glory." Wow, the old covenant was good. It had glory, but it has come to have no glory at all because of what we have now. Again we see a contrast to the 10 commandments and the Spirit. But what is the spirit? Is it the spirit of the law? Keep reading. "12 Therefore having such a hope, we use great boldness in our speech, 13and are not like Moses, who used to put a veil over his face so that the sons of Israel would not look intently at the end of what was fading away. 14But their minds were hardened; for until this very day at the reading of the old covenant the same veil remains unlifted, because it is removed in Christ. 15But to this day whenever Moses is read, a veil lies over their heart; 16but whenever a person turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away." Wow, focusing on the old covenant is not beneficial to us. Remember what Exodus 34 says "28So he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did not eat bread or drink water And he wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the Ten Commandments. 29It came about when Moses was coming down from Mount Sinai (and the two tablets of the testimony were in Moses' hand as he was coming down from the mountain), that Moses did not know that the skin of his face shone because of his speaking with Him." Exodus comes right out and says that the 10 commandments were the words of the covenant. This is what we are warned about focusing on here in 2 Corinthians 3. 2 Corinthians 3 directly warns us that focusing on the law will cause a veil to be upon our hearts. Remember how this chapter started out by saying we have confidence? We can't have confidence in the law or our law keeping. Our adequacy is from God according to 2 Corinthians 3. Focusing on what the Bible calls the Ministy of Death will veil the Gospel. The Gospel of grace does not require law-keeping. Requiring law-keeping to be saved or to stay saved obscures the Gospel. Because with the Gospel our adequacy comes from God! But, but, but it is talking about the spirit of the law, right? Let's keep reading in 2 Corinthians 3... " 17Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty." The Spirit referred to thoughout 2 Corinthians 3 is not the spirit of the law, but the Holy Spirit. I have not found "spirit of the law" anywhere in the Bible. The ministry of the Holy Spirit is such much more than following a law. The law condemns. The Spirit gives life! Notice what it says here - the Spirit gives liberty! So in 2 Corinthians 3 we find the 10 commandments contrasted with something new. We find the 10 commandments as something we should not focus on. We find that the Gospel can be veiled to those focusing on the 10 commandments. We find that the way of the Spirit is one of adequacy and one of liberty. We find that the Spirit is none other than God Himself. Now, is it wrong to steal or kill? Of course, but not because of the 10 commandments. If you do uphold the 10 commandments as for the new covenant Christian is that what prevents you from stealing or killing? Or could it be the Holy Spirit? I'd like to also respond to Martin Weber's statement "We are not saved by keeping the law, but the life of faith will make us faithful. Believers become fully devoted disciples, being drawn into harmony with God’s Ten Commandments so that the “righteousness of the law will be fulfilled in us” (Romans 8:3-4). Whereas ceremonial laws are done away with in the NT, God’s eternal law remains to test the genuineness of our faith. And so we read in 1 Corinthians 7:19: “Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.”" Please provide evidence for your claim that new covenant believers will become in harmony with the 10 commandments. You quoted Romans 8. If you look at it in it's entirety you will again see the same theme as 2 Corinthians 3. "1Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. " Again there is that contrast between the law and the Spirit. Is this the spirit of the law? Keep reading. "3For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, 4so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit." The righteous requirements of the law are fulfilled in us NOT by following the 10 commandments! It says the opposite!! "5For those who are according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who are according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For the mind set on the flesh is death, but the mind set on the Spirit is life and peace, 7because the mind set on the flesh is hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is not even able to do so, 8and those who are in the flesh cannot please God." The law was written for people in the flesh - people who were not born again. No one could keep the law. Condemnation abounded. "9However, you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you But if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to Him." Again the way of the Spirit is not talking about the essence of the law, but the Holy Spirit! The Holy Spirit is essential to the believer. "10If Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, yet the spirit is alive because of righteousness. 11But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you." Wow, the same theme. The Holy Spirit is what is essential to the Christian. Again here in Romans 8 the law is described as the old way. 1 Corinthians 7 is also quoted in Martin Weber's response. It describes how keeping the commandments of God matters. It sure does, but are our commands the old covenant commands - the commands of the Torah - the commands in the 10 commandments? The commands given to New Covenant Christians is defined in the new covenant. 1 John 3 says "21Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence before God; 22and whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do the things that are pleasing in His sight. 23This is His commandment, that we believe in the name of His Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, just as He commanded us. 24The one who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him We know by this that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us." Commandments are specifically defined here and they are not the 10 commandments. Our commands are simple - believe in Jesus and love one another. And love? It goes beyond not stealing. It goes beyond not killing. Love is the more excellent way. Keeping the commandments of God are very important. Keeping the 10 commandments is no more important than wearing tassels on your robe. The old covenant will all it's requirements is the old way. The new covenant is just that - NEW! It is not the old re-written. It is not just written in a new place. The ministry of death has passed into the ministry of the Spirit. The law of the Spirit of life versus the ministry of death - what a contrast. The ministry of death should have no role in a believer's life. For there is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty!

Michelle, Scripture says this about the 7th Day "It is a sign between me and the children of Israel FOREVER." —Exodus 31:16-17    Scripture says this about the Day of Atonement: "It shall be a Sabbath of rest unto you ... a statute forever." —Leviticus 16:30-31 In the context of these passages why does forever only apply to the 7th Day Sabbath but NOT the Day of Atonement Sabbath?

The meaning of "forever" is determined by the object it is describing. It is used more than 50 times in Scripture for things that have ceased to exist--like the temporary ceremonial sabbaths of the Old Covenant, intended for the Jews alone. But the weekly Sabbath memorializes the eternal provisions of Creation and Salvation (since Jesus rested in the tomb on Sabbath after accomplishing Salvation on the cross), and thus the seventh-day Sabbath abides forever. That's why the NT says that "the Sabbath was made for man" (Mark 2:27)--not just for Jews but for all mankind. _ Martin

2 Corinthians 3 condemns not God’s Law itself but the futility of having it written on tables of stone, as in the Old Covenant. In the New Covenant, that same Law is “written on the fleshly tables of the heart” (verse 3). It’s not the message that is different but the place where it is written—tables of the heart instead of tables of stone. If you disagree with that, Amy, please tell me which of the Ten Commandments that God’s Spirit of grace won’t write on your heart? The one that forbids disrespecting parents (5th)? Murdering (6th)? Adultery (7th)? Stealing (8th)? Lying (9th)? How about coveting (10th)? Of course not. Then what about putting false gods before the real God (1st), debasing His image (2nd) or taking His name in vain (3rd)? Certainly not. You’re good with all of those commandments. So where is the problem? Of course, it’s that Sabbath commandment which just won’t go away. So you throw away the whole Law of God just to get rid of one inconvenient truth. And what a pity, since it’s the Sabbath commandment that keeps us from being legalists when honoring the other nine. The Sabbath means rest, remember? Resting in Christ’s finished works? How can you possibly have a problem with that? Now, you want me to provide evidence that the 10 Commandments are written in the heart under the New Covenant? I think I just did! If I didn’t, please do tell me which one of the 10 you don’t want anymore? Only the one that specifically calls us to rest in Christ. This is so weird it boggles the imagination. You fulfill the other nine commandments while resting in Jesus, while you reject the one commandment that calls us to rest in Christ’s finished works of Creation and Salvation. I can't make sense of that. And it gets even worse when you deny that the clear statement of Romans 8:4 that “the righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in us.” It doesn’t say that the righteousness of the Spirit is written in our hearts; it says that the Spirit writes the righteousness of the Law in our hearts. Of course this doesn’t happen in a legalistic way by trying to be good enough before God. It only happens when we rest in Christ, which empowers us to live in the Spirit. So that’s how God’s Law is written in our hearts—by His Spirit, who leads us to Gospel rest (which is what the seventh-day Sabbath is all about!). Amy, you speak of Christ’s two great commandments of Jesus: to love the Lord with all our hearts and our neighbors as ourselves. Fine. Now which of God’s 10 Commandments do Christ’s two commandments overthrow? Please tell us. Actually, we already have Christ’s own explanation: “On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets” (Matthew 22:40). The Message Bible puts it this ways; “These two commands are pegs; everything in God’s Law and the Prophets hangs from them.” So there we have it: Christ’s two commandments support God’s Law instead of negating it. The apostle Paul puts it this way: “Do we then make void the Law through faith?” Yes, according to Dale Ratzlaff. But the Bible says, “God forbid, we establish the Law” (Romans 3:31). Which brings us back to 1 Corinthians 7:19: “Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing, but keeping the commandments of God is what matters.”

Martin says “2 Corinthians 3 condemns not God’s Law itself but the futility of having it written on tables of stone, as in the Old Covenant. In the New Covenant, that same Law is “written on the fleshly tables of the heart” (verse 3). It’s not the message that is different but the place where it is written—tables of the heart instead of tables of stone.” ------------------------------------------- 2 Corinthians 3 not only contrasts the location, but what is written. 2 Corinthians 3 says that the letter kills. You say that letters – the words of the Ten Commandments which 2 Corinthians 3 calls the ministry of death - are what is written on my heart? 2Corinthians contrasts the 10 commandments with the ministry of the Spirit and it defines Spirit as God. God did not indwell people before Christ’s sacrifice. The Spirit came upon a few individuals before Christ’s sacrifice, but now the Spirit lives within all Christians. ------------------------------------- Look at Galatians 4 “24These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. 25Now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. 26But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. 27For it is written: "Be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband."[b] 28Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. 29At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. 30But what does the Scripture say? "Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son."[c] 31Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.” In Galatians 4 it also talks about the covenant from Mount Sinai. We know Deuteronomy specifically calls the 10 commandments as the words of the covenant. Here in Galatians it contrasts the two covenants. It talks about the children under the old covenant as slaves and the children of the new covenant as free. In Galatians it says to get rid of the slave woman and her son. Does God free us by putting slavery on our heart? You said “If you disagree with that, Amy, please tell me which of the Ten Commandments that God’s Spirit of grace won’t write on your heart? “ ------------------------------------- All of them. He doesn’t write the ministry of death on my heart. The new covenant is something new all together! He writes Himself. He writes His love. Apape love. God doesn’t even command us to love Him in the new covenant. 1 John says we love Him because He first loved us. He fills us up with His love. You said “So you throw away the whole Law of God just to get rid of one inconvenient truth. And what a pity, since it’s the Sabbath commandment that keeps us from being legalists when honoring the other nine. The Sabbath means rest, remember? Resting in Christ’s finished works? How can you possibly have a problem with that?” ---------------------------------------- No, you don’t throw away the law. We uphold the law! Jesus was the only One who was righteous. He was the only One who never sinned. He was the only One who upheld the righteous requirements of the law. He did it for us. No man could do it. -------------------------------------- I love the Sabbath rest in Christ. The ceremonial shadows that pointed to the rest in salvation are immense and beautiful. But honouring the shadows isn’t what the rest is about. Resting in Christ is about trusting in Him alone for our salvation apart from any works. Salvation is by grace though faith alone. ------------------------------------- You said “And it gets even worse when you deny that the clear statement of Romans 8:4 that “the righteousness of the Law is fulfilled in us.” It doesn’t say that the righteousness of the Spirit is written in our hearts; it says that the Spirit writes the righteousness of the Law in our hearts.” ------------------------------------- I don’t deny the statement from Romans. I think the partial quote of a verse does not reveal the meaning intended in the chapter. I’ll quote Romans 8 again. It says “1Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2because through Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law was powerless to do in that it was weakened by the sinful nature, God did by sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful man to be a sin offering. And so he condemned sin in sinful man, 4in order that the righteous requirements of the law might be fully met in us, who do not live according to the sinful nature but according to the Spirit.” Look at verse 3. God sent His Son. The righteous requirements of the law are fully met in us because Jesus fully met them. 1 Corinthians says that Jesus is our righteousness. There is no condemnation for us because Jesus paid the price. He freed us from a law that was given to increase sin. Our life now is in the Spirit. God lives in us, not the old covenant law. He set us free from the law of sin and death. ------------------------------------- You said “Amy, you speak of Christ’s two great commandments of Jesus: to love the Lord with all our hearts and our neighbors as ourselves.” --------------------------------- You misunderstood me here. I quoted the commands in 1 John and not the two greatest commands from the old covenant. The commands from 1 John are different – love one another and believe in Jesus. ----------------------------------- You said “Now which of God’s 10 Commandments do Christ’s two commandments overthrow? Please tell us. Actually, we already have Christ’s own explanation: “On these two commandments depend all the law and the prophets” (Matthew 22:40). The Message Bible puts it this ways; “These two commands are pegs; everything in God’s Law and the Prophets hangs from them.” So there we have it: Christ’s two commandments support God’s Law instead of negating it.” ------------------------------------- Jesus was asked the greatest commands in the law – the old covenant law. He said the love one another and love God. Yes, all the Torah hangs on those. But those are not the commands in the new covenant. I quoted 1 John and not Matthew. ------------------------------------ You said “The apostle Paul puts it this way: “Do we then make void the Law through faith?” Yes, according to Dale Ratzlaff. But the Bible says, “God forbid, we establish the Law” (Romans 3:31).” ------------------------------------ No, we don’t void the law. We uphold it. Jesus did it for you. Jesus did what no man could do. He upheld all the righteous requirements of the law for you. And at the same time we are not children of the slave woman. We are now free. And as 2 Corinthians 3 says where the Spirit of the Lord is there is liberty.

Yes, Amy, there is liberty in the Spirit of the Lord. Yet something still gets written in our hearts. And we don’t have to guess what that is: God’s Laws. Notice what this says about the believers who receive Christ’s once-for-all sacrifice for sins under the New Covenant: “This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws on their hearts, and write them on their minds” (Heb. 10:16). That’s pretty clear, I’d say. Dale Ratzlaff says that principles not laws are written in the heart of the NC Christian. But here we read that God’s Laws are written in our hearts. Not literal words, of course. God isn’t tattooing our hearts. No, He is putting within us a willingness to love Him—not according to my whims and feelings but according to His terms, His commandments. It’s called the obedience of faith. Remember, under the NC we are not trusting for salvation in how well the Law is written in our hearts. That would be a false obedience of works—legalism. That is Old Covenant bondage from Mt. Sinai, slavery of the soul, forever wondering whether we are good enough instead of rejoicing in the grace of God. We’re free from having to be good enough to be saved! “If the Son shall make you free you shall be free indeed.” Amen! But free to do what? Free to do as we please? Free to fornicate, lie, steal (or break the Sabbath)? That’s evidently what some Christians think, since there is hardly any measurable difference as to the moral behavior of Christians and the world. One man said: “I love God’s grace—He enjoys forgiving, and I enjoy sinning. So we’ve got a win-win relationship.” No, that’s not grace, but disgrace. I’m sure we both agree that faith makes a difference in our lives. What kind of a difference? Agape love, as you say. But what is agape love? It’s more than cheap talk, more than warm feelings. It’s fully-devoted discipleship that keeps God’s commandments: “And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says ‘I know him’ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love [agape] of God is perfected.” So agape love is shown in the lives of those who keep God’s commandments—not out of legalistic motives but because they have come to know His grace and mercy. Our brother Dale Ratzlaff insists that this commandment keeping is not referring to the Ten Commandments. Then I would ask both him and you: “Which of the Ten Commandments does this NOT refer to?” The commandment that says don’t murder? Don’t commit adultery? Don’t steal? Don’t kill or lie or covet? Of course not. So what’s the problem you have with God’s Ten Commandments? Don’t tell me, Amy, let me guess! I’ll bet it’s that pesky Sabbath commandment you guys are trying to run away from. You throw out the whole Ten Commandments to get rid of the Sabbath. What a pity—it’s the Sabbath commandment that delivers us from legalism as we obey God. Once again I’ll point out here that the word Sabbath means “rest,” literally “ceasing” from our own works to rest in Christ’s finished work for us. The Sabbath is a weekly reminder of the Gospel! Every Friday evening when the sun goes down, the Sabbath reminds me to forsake my unfinished works and find rest in the completed accomplishments of our Lord Jesus Christ. So what part of that weekly seventh-day rest experience do you have a problem with?

Yes, God writes His law on our hearts, but why do you believe this equals the 10 commandments? 2 Corinthians 3 comes right out and says that the 10 commandments are the ministry of death. ---------------------------------------------------------- You said “We’re free from having to be good enough to be saved! “If the Son shall make you free you shall be free indeed.” Amen! But free to do what? Free to do as we please? Free to fornicate, lie, steal (or break the Sabbath)?” -------------- Yes, that is what freedom is. We are free to sin. But at the same time we will reap what we sow. Sinning does not change our saved status. If it does then it is salvation by works. Salvation is by grace through faith alone and not by works. We don’t lose our salvation when we sin. Jesus is our righteousness. Jesus is our sanctification. It is not about our works anymore, but about Him working through us. ------------------------- You said “And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. Whoever says ‘I know him’ but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love [agape] of God is perfected.” So agape love is shown in the lives of those who keep God’s commandments—not out of legalistic motives but because they have come to know His grace and mercy. Our brother Dale Ratzlaff insists that this commandment keeping is not referring to the Ten Commandments.”------------------------------ And I would have to agree with Dale Ratzlaff and 1 John. That quote is from 1 John and 1 John defines commandments as loving your brother and believing in Jesus. Where does 1 John mention the 10 commandments?--------------------------------------- I don’t have a problem with the Sabbath at all. I’m not running away from anything. What have I said that would lead to that assumption? I said before that the shadows of the Sabbath are beautiful and full of meaning. Yet, I am not under the old covenant law at all. New covenant = new law. My commands in the new covenant go far beyond the commands in the 10 commandments. Galatians 3 says “ 23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.” If Galatians tells me that I am not under the old covenant law, why are you trying to tell me I am?

It seems to me that for centuries there was no conflict between the Old and New Testaments. However, as the Sabbath of the 4th commandment received greater recognition one testament pushed the other aside. How grateful I am for grace. I can be saved no other way. It is not my faith or works. It is God's unmerited favor. I have always seen the Sabbath as a relational command. A time when I recognize that He alone is my Creator and Redeemer. This corresponds with Ex. 20 and Deut. 5. God is worshiped as Creator and Redeemer. It seems that those who wish to nullify the Sabbath rest are not balanced in their opion of grace. As they throw out leagalism they throw out the baby with the bath water. David was under the terms of the New Covenant when he proclaimed that God's law was hide in his heart. Ps. 40:8 Jesus epitmized this text in His holy life. To claim that this is for the "Jew" denies that God is not a respector of persons. Mercy and Justice, both aspects of God's character, is His ideal for His people. Micah 6:8 The added quality for mankind is submission. God never forces, but writes His love of love only on the submissive heart.

Amy, God’s Ten Commandments are only the ministry of death under an old covenant of works. But when we are saved by grace apart from the law (Romans 3), love comes into our hearts. And that expression of agape love fulfills God’s commandments in our hearts—all 10 of them. Maybe you could think of it this way: Just as we lose our lives for Christ’s sake to find them, so we “lose the law” for Christ’s sake in letting go of our efforts to be good enough. But then we discover that same law fulfilling in our hearts. This is the miracle of the New Covenant. The New Covenant does not bring in some new law different than God’s Law, which forbids murder, stealing, adultery, etc. It’s the same law written in a new way—not on tables of stone but on the tables of our hearts. And yes, this happens much more gloriously than anyone could envision—and the seventh-day Sabbath is at the heart of this experience of resting in Jesus. Amy, if you say you haven’t forsaken the Sabbath, I’m not sure what you mean by “shadows of the Sabbath.” The seventh-day Sabbath is not a shadow of anything. It’s a glorious memorial to our salvation in Christ; a weekly opportunity to celebrate everything the New Covenant represents. And please let me clarify once again: I’m not saying we are now suddenly again under the law. We are under grace and it stays that way. That’s how we are saved, and that’s how we live. And once again, the miracle of living under grace is that the Spirit writes that same law in our hearts so we don’t murder, lie, steal, resist the seventh-day Sabbath rest in Christ, etc.

You said “Amy, God’s Ten Commandments are only the ministry of death under an old covenant of works.” ======================================= The 10 commandments are the very words of the old covenant. We are now under a new covenant. The miracle of the new covenant has nothing to do with the law. 2 Corinthians 5 says “17Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; the old has gone, the new has come! 18All this is from God, who reconciled us to himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation: 19that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation. 20We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 21God made him who had no sin to be sin[a]for us, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.” The new birth is the miracle of the new covenant. ============================================ Where does the Bible refer to the 10 commandments as part of the new covenant? =========================================== The seventh-day Sabbath in the old covenant was a shadow of the salvation rest we have in Christ. I don’t worship the shadows, but the reality. I don’t focus on the shadows of the Passover either, but the reality. You are certainly free to memorialize salvation weekly if you prefer. ================================================= Galatians 3 says that we are not under the old covenant law anymore. “23Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ[h] that we might be justified by faith. 25Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.” Yet, you say the words of the old covenant are written on our heart. Please show me where you find the Bible saying that the words of the old covenant are what is written on our hearts. Is this an assumption or are you basing it on some texts?

The Sabbath is listed as a Feast day in Leviticus 23. And when John says Jesus broke the Sabbath, those words do not mean "Jesus broke the Pharisees laws about the Sabbath."-------------The Bible must be read and understood as we would read and understand other literature. We have to understand the plain, ordinary meanings of the words. They are not "code" for something more obscure.------------------Jesus actually did break the Sabbath; he commanded the paralytic at the Pool of Bethsaida to pick up his bed and walk on the Sabbath. He allowed his disciples to harvest grain and eat it on the fly, so to speak. Just as he broke the other ceremonial laws, touching dead people and lepers as He healed them in clear violation of the law, so He broke the Sabbath. Jesus NEVER broke any moral command. But He did systematically break every "ceremonial" law to demonstrate that He was, in fact, the Messiah--the one the Law and the Prophets and the Psalms foreshadowed.-------------Martin, what would happen if you asked God to remove from your heart whatever attachment was not from Him and to give you Himself and only what He wants for you? Would you be willing to seriously surrender to God your loyalty to the Sabbath to see what God might do or say to you?-------------- Colleen

Hi again, Amy. I do appreciate your holding me accountable to the New Covenant Gospel. Regarding 2 Corinthians 3, once more: It’s not the words of the Law that get literally written in the heart, as if somehow tattooed. It is what the Law represents in each of its 10 commandments, as summed up in Christ’s two commandments— which of course were themselves carried over from the Old Testament (Deut. 6:4-6 and Lev. 19:18). So if we are going to do away with OT teaching on law we will have to do away with Christ’s two commandments as well! (Life Assurance Ministries ought to keep that in mind when they embrace those two commandments but throw away the other laws of the OT.) The best NT passage to help me understand law vs. grace, OC vs NC, is Romans 7—one of the most important chapters in the Bible to me, and very formative in my theology. Paul sets it up a few verses earlier in Rom. 6:14: “For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.” Then in opening chapter 7, he explains what it means not to live under law. More than most Adventists envision, I admit. He is talking about more than just not being under the law’s condemnation; we are also not under the dominion or supervision of the law (you point out from Gal. 3—the law is our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, so now we are no longer under that legal schoolmaster but under grace to Christ.) The law ultimately tests the genuineness of our faith, but it does not motivate or define our faith. Back to Romans 7, we find the two covenants illustrated by two husbands: “1 Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. 3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress. 4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God.” So there we have it: one woman (representing humanity) and two husbands, representing the two covenants. Husband #1 represents the OC, in which we are bound to perform the demands of the law as long as we are alive. (This includes the whole Jewish legal system, not only the ceremonial laws. Once again I acknowledge that many Adventists don’t understand this, but verse 7 proves that the Ten Commandments are included here). Our OC experience of obedience is quite miserable, since we never quite measure up. The legalist would say “try harder” or “pray harder for more strength from God.” God’s solution to our failed relationship with law is quite different. (This is spiritual adultery—trying to gain resources from the new husband to pay respect to the former husband.) Verse 4 says we died to the Law. How? Through the body of Christ. When? In His death on the cross. With what result? That now we can be married to another person. Who would that be? The One who was raised from the dead—Jesus! That’s how we transition from the OC to the NC; through our death on the cross in the body of Jesus Christ. All of us realize that Christ died on the cross for us; few of us (but I’m sure you do, Amy) realize that WE also died on the cross in the body of Christ. And that ended our relationship with the Law under the OC. Our NC relationship is with a Person instead of with a list of rules; it’s based on grace instead of law. (Right now many of my fellow Adventists reading this might be getting quite nervous—if their obedience to God is based on Law. But let’s relax and see this through.) So we died through the body of Christ to a relationship with God based on how well we are keeping the Law. We now have a NC relationship with God based not on our performance before the Law but on Christ’s perfection, which is ours through His resurrection. Now, Amy, what shall we do with this freedom? That’s the key question. Having died and risen with Christ, are we now free to live like Good Time Charlie, running around town doing as we please? God forbid, and I’m sure you would agree. We are united in New Covenant “marriage to another, to Him who was raised from the dead.” And marriage is not a free-for-all do-as-I-please relationship; it has its own set of principles—faithfulness, loyalty, etc. Marriage is actually a ministry! With what outcome? “That we might bear fruit for God.” The fruit of the Spirit is love, which is the fulfilling of the law—not as a means of salvation, but as the expression of it. Cleansed from all guilt and shame, we are free to love God with all of our hearts. And through this love—you guessed it!—we find ourselves drawn into harmony with God’s commandments. Sin (lawlessness) has no dominion over us, for we are not under law but under grace. We are “released from the law so that we serve, in the newness of the Spirit, not in the oldness of the written code” (verse 6). In the OC, we were enslaved to fulfill a written code of Law. In the NC, the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus brings the righteousness of the law into our hearts. We have “lost the law “ for Christ’s sake by dying to the law on the cross with Him—but suddenly we now find ourselves being drawn into harmony with the law. Not for righteousness’ sake, but because of our righteousness already bestowed on us by grace in Christ. We don’t need to find false fulfillment by breaking God’s commandments anymore—to lie, cheat, steal, or do our own thing on the Sabbath day. ### The Sabbath? Yes indeed—the Sabbath perfectly illustrates everything the NC represents. Instead of being a 24-hour tightrope, as under the OC, Sabbath in the NC illustrates our rest in Christ each week. The Sabbath is the brightest of all billboards proclaiming the grace and peace we have in Jesus. On Friday evening when the sun goes down, we lay aside our unfinished works and find rest in the finished accomplishments of Jesus Christ! Our friends at Life Assurance Ministries insist on looking at the Sabbath as an OC Jewish ritual. I pray that their eyes will be opened to see the NC beauty of Gospel rest in Jesus week by week. By making our rest in Christ every day of the week in Christ the Sabbath, they water down and in fact destroy the beauty and glory of God’s gospel memorial to Creation and Salvation—the very reasons we worship Him! Amy, not only the Sabbath but everything I believe is in the context of NC grace. Nothing is based in OC law. All 28 Seventh-day Adventist Fundamental Beliefs blossom like flowers in the garden of the New Covenant. One final thought—you asked where in the NT can we find reference to the Ten Commandments specifically? How about Ephesians 6:2, which quotes verbatim the fifth commandment, and lest anyone miss the point it says: “It is the first commandment with promise.” When you look down the list of the 10, that’s exactly true. The Ten Commandments, rather than being destroyed by the NC, are written in our hearts. That’s what the NT says, anyway.

You said what the law represents gets written on our hearts. Where do you get this idea? 2 Corinthians 3 does not say that what the law represents is written on our heart. How do you connect the ministry of the Spirit with the old covenant law? =============================================== Christ’s command as evidenced in John is the same as 1 John. He said “9"As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love. 10If you obey my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have obeyed my Father's commands and remain in his love. 11I have told you this so that my joy may be in you and that your joy may be complete. 12My command is this: Love each other as I have loved you. 13Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends. 14You are my friends if you do what I command. 15I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master's business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you. 16You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you to go and bear fruit—fruit that will last. Then the Father will give you whatever you ask in my name. 17This is my command: Love each other.” =================================== Christ was asked the greatest commands of the law and he said love one another and love God. Those are commands in the old covenant law. They are the greatest commands in the old covenant law and all old covenant commands can hang on them. But those are not the commands in the new covenant. Jesus said “a new command I give unto you.” ========================================== Yes, we died to the law. I agree that we have Christ’s perfection. We have Christ’s righteousness. Are we free to do as we please? Yes. That is what freedom is. But there are consequences for wrong choices. Lying to someone breaks trust. Infidelity can lead to divorce and heartache. It was for freedom that Christ set us free. ===================================== The new covenant is about agape love. I don’t understand why you continue to go back to the words of the old covenant and say that they are what are fulfilled in us. What commands are missing in the new covenant that you feel you need to revert to the 10 commandments? As you mentioned Ephesians does quote one of the 10 commandments and expands on it. Many of the moral principles in the old covenant are reiterated in the new covenant. I think the issue you are having here is the Sabbath. There is no command to keep the Sabbath in the new covenant and several verses that say it is no longer for the new covenant Christian. ============================================= Laws can change. Hebrews says that with the change in priesthood there is also a change in law. 2 Corinthians 3 says that what once had glory has come to have no glory at all. What we have now is better. The instructions in the new covenant hold us to a higher standard. And we have God living in us to guide us and instruct us. ================================== You said “The Sabbath? Yes indeed—the Sabbath perfectly illustrates everything the NC represents. Instead of being a 24-hour tightrope, as under the OC, Sabbath in the NC illustrates our rest in Christ each week. The Sabbath is the brightest of all billboards proclaiming the grace and peace we have in Jesus.” ========================================= This seems full of irony to me. You work to remember grace? A work is lifted up to proclaim grace? Yes, resting on the Sabbath is a work. Even good deeds are works. The Gospel of Jesus is the brightest of all billboards proclaiming the grace and peace we have in Jesus. The Sabbath does nothing. The Gospel of Jesus is the ONLY billboard that proclaims the grace and peace we have in Jesus. What would happen if you did not stop your physical labours on the Sabbath? What if you esteemed all days alike? =============================================== The Bible says that the weekly Sabbath is a feast, not some ministry. Lev 23 says “ 1 The LORD said to Moses, 2 "Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'These are my appointed feasts, the appointed feasts of the LORD, which you are to proclaim as sacred assemblies. 3 " 'There are six days when you may work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath of rest, a day of sacred assembly. You are not to do any work; wherever you live, it is a Sabbath to the LORD.” ============================================= I don’t follow your reasoning. It is wrong to remember and celebrate our salvation every day of the week? It is better to focus on it just once a week? That makes no sense. ================================================== You say that nothing that you believe is based in old covenant law, yet you lift up the weekly Sabbath feast as a billboard when there is not one command in the new covenant regarding it. ================================================ You said” One final thought—you asked where in the NT can we find reference to the Ten Commandments specifically? How about Ephesians 6:2, which quotes verbatim the fifth commandment, and lest anyone miss the point it says: “It is the first commandment with promise.” When you look down the list of the 10, that’s exactly true. The Ten Commandments, rather than being destroyed by the NC, are written in our hearts. That’s what the NT says, anyway.” ======================================= Please show me where the Bible says the 10 commandments are written in our heart. Ephesians quotes a command and expands on it. Are you inferring that because it quotes and expands on a moral principle in the 10 commandments that the old covenant is written on our heart?

Everything in ancient Jewish culture was lived in the context of ritual and ceremonies, including food, marriage and the Sabbath. This doesn’t mean that we today, in our own culture, enjoy food, marriage—and the Sabbath. # Now, you say that Jesus broke the Sabbath. Actually, He dismantled the ceremonial rituals about the day, while preserving the intrinsic meaning of His creating/healing life celebrated on that day. Instead of abolishing the weekly Sabbath, He proclaimed Himself Lord of the Sabbath. (He didn’t say that He was the Sabbath, but rather that He is Lord of it—there is a difference between the Creator and the memorial He created.) If Jesus had planned to do away with the Sabbath, He sure didn’t say anything about it. (That ought to say something to us!) Instead, Christ invested a lot of teaching and example in showing how the Sabbath is a celebration of His creative healing power. # As for Hebrews 4, we do find the seventh day specified in connection with Gospel rest. To see the context, let’s go back a few verses to chapter 3, which recounts the fatal unbelief of those who failed to enter Canaan. Then comes a warning for Jewish Christians to avoid likewise falling short of gospel rest. In this context of resting in God's salvation, the seventh day Sabbath is introduced: God's "works were finished from the foundation of the world" and He "rested on the seventh day from all His works" (4:3,4). Then comes the sad history of Jewish failure to enter this Sabbath rest, which God had earned for them. Even after Joshua finally led them into Canaan they were not yet into Sabbath rest. Being external sabbatarians, the Jews did avoid business on the holy day. But they were not true Sabbath keepers they never entered the spirit of Sabbath rest. This passage, read carefully, clearly carries the seventh-day Sabbath into the Christian church. Verse 8 mentions "another day" David introduced. Another day besides what? The Sabbath, of course; the passage is still discussing the seventh day rest. Did David's day replace the Sabbath day? On the contrary. He made true Sabbath keeping possible by calling a time apart to repent and believe in God's salvation. Did the Jews ever become true Sabbath keepers? Unfortunately not: "There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God" (4:9). And what Sabbath rest is this that remains for New Testament Christians? "For the one who has entered His rest has himself also rested from his works, as God did from His" (4:10). When did God rest from His works? Verse 4 says: “God did rest the seventh day from all His works.” So there we have it. This seventh-day Sabbath, says the apostle, remains for us so we can celebrate gospel rest. Keep in mind that Hebrews 4 has no hint that God would abolish His sacred day of rest. The opposite is stated. So why do even Adventists themselves often ignore this powerful New Testament proof of the Sabbath? Because some of us doubt that the seventh day Sabbath is under discussion throughout the passage. After all, how could the apostle be telling Hebrews that their nation never kept the Sabbath? But this is exactly his point the Jews, who strictly observed the day, ignored its meaning. The apostle proves their need to begin true Sabbath keeping by reminding them of Canaan. In David's day, three centuries after Joshua brought them in, they still had not entered the rest it represented. Therefore they were mere sabbatarians, not Sabbath keepers. The call for spiritual rest on Sabbath, just like God Himself did rest—on the seventh day! This is the rest that remains for us. # Colleen, I am touched rather than offended by your personal appeal to me: “Martin, what would happen if you asked God to remove from your heart whatever attachment was not from Him and to give you Himself and only what He wants for you?” That’s a great idea! In fact, I’ve been doing that every day for 39 years as a believer. Every morning before heading to the Mid- America Union office I spend two hours at home in study and worship, one hour of it in prayer. The doctor says I have arthritis in my knees and shouldn’t be kneeling down, but I have about eight or more pillows to support my aging joints as I call upon the Lord. You also ask, “Would you be willing to seriously surrender to God your loyalty to the Sabbath to see what God might do or say to you?” Colleen! That’s a loaded question, presuming that perhaps my loyalty is to a day rather than to my Lord. But fair enough, I know you well enough (through a close mutual friend at Union College) that again I’m not offended. All I can say is that I have sold out all my loyalty to the Lord; I just find in the Sabbath a wonderful opportunity from Jesus to express that loyalty to Him as my Creator and Redeemer. That’s why He gave us the Sabbath in the first place, and that’s why I look forward to celebrating it with Him for eternity.

Amy, I think we are beginning to talk in circles now. If you are not persuaded by the mass of information I've shared, I don't know what else to tell you except that I pray for God to guide you, and me, and all the rest of us on life's continuing journey.

Thank you for the opportunity to dialog. I wish you well.

Martin, even the SDA Bible commentary says that "sabbatismos" in Hebrews 4:9 does not teach that "Sabbath-keeping" remains for God's people. That word is completely unique in the Bible, and it refers to a "Sabbath-like rest", but it is not talking about the seventh-day Sabbath. Actually, in context, Hebrews 4 does teach that Sabbath-keeping was never achieved, and God did set another day. David announced this new day called TODAY, and the rest of the chapter explains that because of this new day, a "Sabbath-like rest" remains for the people of God. The actual problem with our misunderstanding of our apparently mutual "grace terms" is the difference in our foundations. Underneath your "gospel arguments" you do carry a belief in the eternal significance of Sabbath, a belief in soul sleep which denies the existence of a human spirit which survives the death of the body—thus affecting the definition of man's nature, Jesus' nature, the nature of sin, and also of salvation. Moreover, you also hold to the "great controversy worldview" that assumes God's character is on trial and we participate in vindicating Him to the watching universe. This worldview also assumes Sabbath is a testing truth between believers and unbelievers in the final generaton, and that worship on Sunday will be the mark of the beast. Finally, you hold to a respect for Ellen White as an important source of spiritual insight and truth. All of these four beliefs alter the meanings of the words you use. No matter how "normal" your initial arguments sound, they are shaped by and must defend these four things. This is why it begins to feel as if "formers" and Adventists end up talking in circles. The actual bottom line definitions and beliefs are very different.

Mr. Ratzlaff begins his comments by saying, "There is no command to keep the Sabbath in the N.T." ---I ask, why should there be? Would we really need any of the other 9 commandments repeated for us to believe they are still valid? --- Shouldn't the burden of proof be on those who toss out the Sabbath? Where is the command to stop keeping Sabbath in the NT? Where does it say in the New Testament that we are to stop observing the Seventh day? Please someone show me where the specific line in the NT is that says "Do not observe the Seventh day as My Sabbath." The fact is it's not there. --- In that case, I think I'll just choose to express my love to God by doing what Jesus says in John 14:15, "If you love me, keep my commandments."

Colleen, it’s true that we all bring our presuppositions to any interpretations we do, but please don’t obscure or escape the meaning of this passage by introducing four doctrinal issues that have no direct relevance here. Let’s focus on the passage itself: # 1) The theme in Hebrews 4 is entering Gospel rest, carried over from chapter 3. # 2) The warning is about avoid refusing to enter Gospel rest, like the Israelites in their disobedient unbelief under Moses. # 3) We see here two symbols of entering that gospel rest: Canaan, and the Sabbath—specifically the seventh-day Sabbath. (And Coleen, please note that this weekly Sabbath rest is founded in God’s finishing of creation—a truth which you and Dale Ratzlaff deny by trying to push the Sabbath off until the time of Moses, so you can reject it as a Jewish ritual. Yet here’s a direct and undeniable quote from the Creation account in Gen 2:2-3 that is connected with a discussion about the Sabbath.) # 4) The lesson of Hebrews 4 is that the Israelites never entered spiritual rest—even though they were outwardly complying with both symbols of rest: entering Canaan and keeping the seventh-day Sabbath. They were living physically in the land of rest but not embracing spiritual rest. And they were outwardly keeping the Sabbath while missing its meaning of spiritual rest. # 5) The proof that Joshua had failed to lead Israel into spiritual rest, even after he led them into the land of rest, is that several hundred years later David had to set aside “another day.” # 6) “Another day” besides what day? The seventh-day Sabbath day of rest, mentioned two verses earlier—the only day we see in this passage so far. So obviously the seventh-day Sabbath is under discussion. # 7) What was David’s “another day” for? Was it to replace the seventh-day Sabbath? Obviously not, since a thousand years later the seventh-day Sabbath was still being kept in Christ’s day. # 8) David’s “another day” was a special day he set aside for national repentance—as noted in Psalm 95, which Hebrews 4 is quoting. Psalm 95 is a call to repent and worship the Creator God—which is purpose of the seventh-day Sabbath. So seventh-day Sabbath rest is throughout this passage right up to the beginning of verse 9. # 9) After David’s time, did the Jews ever enter the spiritual rest of their own seventh-day Sabbath? No, says verse 9: “There remains therefore a Sabbath rest for the people of God.” What is this “sabbatismos,” mentioned only here in the NT? Note that there is no article in front of it, so nobody can say this is just “a sabbath,” turning it into anything restful that they might wish it to be. And Colleen is mistaken by calling it a “sabbath-like rest.” The word means simply “Sabbath rest.” And we don’t have to guess what Sabbath rest is being referred to, for two reasons: what immediately precedes Sabbatismos and what follows it. # 10) Verse 9 begins with an inferential participle, translated “so then” or “therefore.” This picks up the seventh-day Sabbath from verse 8 and carries it into verse 9. “Therefore” it’s the seventh-day Sabbath that “Sabbatismos” is referring to. # 11) Lest anyone miss that connection, notice the next verse (10): “For whoever has entered God’s rest has also rested from His works as God did from His.” When did God “rest from His works”? We don’t have to guess or speculate. Verse 4 already told us, using the exact language here: “And God rested on the seventh day from all His works.” # So there we have it: Rather than doing away with the seventh-day Sabbath by introducing some wishful thinking substitute day, Hebrews 4 specifically and emphatically reinforces the seventh day Sabbath. It’s simple message: “Don’t make the same mistake the ancient Israelites did. They entered the land of rest physically but not spiritually, and they were Sabbath-keepers physically but not spiritually—Sabbatarians who had never entered Gospel rest. # And isn’t this exactly the picture of the Jews of that day? They had hundreds of outward laws for Sabbath observance, but they rejected the Lord of the Sabbath and hurried home before sundown to light Sabbath candles. # But wait a moment—what about the SDA Commentary? It says that Hebrews 4 is probably not talking about the weekly Sabbath, because the Israelites already were keeping the day holy. But actually they weren’t--which is the problem in the passage. Our Commentary somehow overlooks this, which is the very point of the passage, as we’ve been discussing. It was the same situation as in Isaiah’s day, when in chapter 58 God rebukes His people for missing the meaning of the Sabbath despite all their fasting and outward forms of worship. # 12) So there remains therefore a Sabbatismos for the people of God—and if we enter that rest we will do as God did, resting not just physically but spiritually on the seventh day from all our works. And as a bonus, we have in Hebrews 4 undeniable proof that the seventh-day Sabbath began not with Moses but with God’s finished works at the foundation of this world. # To summarize: When we recognize the reality that Hebrews 4 is a challenge to enter the inner spiritual meaning of what already was being kept only outwardly and physically, then seventh-day worship is reinforced rather than abolished.